Gatekeeping the Podcast Industry, Monetization & A Decade In - An Interview with Mark Asquith
As I bring The Podcast Accelerator back from hiatus, I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences from over a decade in podcasting.
But, rather than just rattle through a list of things that I've seen and how the industry has developed, I thought it's be fun to bring on a podcasting talent and good friend to interview me for my own show - so, welcome to the show my interviewer, Danny Brown of Pod Chat and Captivate fame!
My interviewer...
- Danny Brown
- Serial podcaster | Head of Podcaster Support & Experience at Captivate.fm | Scotsman transplanted to Canada
- Danny's Website
- Youtube: Danny on YouTube
- Instagram: @thebrownsmuskoka on Instagram
- Twitter: @DannyBrownCA on Twitter
Useful links from the episode
- Podcast Standards Project | Advocating for open podcasting
- Podcastindex.org
- Captivate Podcast Hosting
- Spark of Rebellion, Star Wars Podcast, UK
- Mark Asquith, That British Podcast Guy & Co-Founder of Captivate.fm
Fan of the show? Find it helpful?
You can become a supporter of the show via a one-off tip that I'll use to buy a beer at this link: Support The Podcast Accelerator: How to Grow Your Podcast.
Your next steps
I teach podcasting a lot and for free. So, here's what I'd recommend you do next:
- Watch my free podcasting tutorials on YouTube: YouTube (Captivate)
- Ask me anything at all about podcasting over on Twitter: Twitter
If you need help with anything at all regarding your podcast, get me on Twitter (Twitter ) and I promise to respond.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Podtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
What was the podcasting industry like all those years ago when I first started? Ten
[Mark]:years ago, to be precise. And what does it take to run a podcast hosting platform and
[Mark]:try and keep on top of an educational podcast like the podcast accelerator? Well,
[Mark]:I figured I'd give you a look behind the curtain, go a little bit deeper into really
[Mark]:what it takes to kind of do all of these. podcasting endeavours and stay on top of it
[Mark]:whilst also keeping it fun because that of course can be the challenge but instead
[Mark]:of forcing you to listen to me harp on about the good old days of podcasting, how
[Mark]:it used to be and what it is like to do a few of the things that I do. decided to
[Mark]:bring on someone who loves podcasting probably more than I do. Someone who can truly
[Mark]:say he spends his time trying to make the industry better, enjoying the podcasting
[Mark]:industry and getting to know everyone within it. It is of course my wonderful co-host
[Mark]:and interviewer, Mr Danny Brown of course from Captivate, our fantastic head of support
[Mark]:and experience and the founder and host of the wonderful Pod Chat amongst many other
[Mark]:podcasts. What's up dude, how are you?
[Danny Brown]:I'm good, I feel kind of strange sitting in Gary's seat, because normally it's
[Danny Brown]:you and Gary on the old Spark Rebellion and all the cool nerd stuff. So it
[Danny Brown]:feels kind of weird sat here.
[Mark]:Well, you are a lot better looking than Gary, a lot more charming and of course a lot
[Mark]:funnier as well. So Gary, if you're listening to this, I mean everything. I mean
[Mark]:it all. But yeah, we're talking about the Star Wars show that Gaz and I do, which
[Mark]:is a hobby show, sparkrebellion.com. And this is weird because I'm going to put
[Mark]:this out the week commencing the 8th of May, but we're actually recording this on
[Mark]:May the 4th, dude. So happy Star Wars Day to you, my friend.
[Danny Brown]:Happy Star Wars Day. Many many years. What's that 40 plus years now? 77, 78?
[Danny Brown]:Good grief.
[Mark]:Wow, it's insane. I actually went to watch Return of the Jedi as well in the cinema
[Mark]:the other day. It was fascinating to see. It was fantastic, man. Really loved it.
[Danny Brown]:That'd be cool to see that. And I saw there was like some little Funko toys
[Danny Brown]:there and some original Star Wars memorabilia.
[Mark]:Yeah, they were throwing all that out. And then a local guy to us, Matt Ferguson,
[Mark]:did the worldwide global poster for it, which is on Disney Plus as well. So he's
[Mark]:a guy from Sheffield, Matt Ferguson, does a lot with Disney, and it's just been
[Mark]:really nice to be a part of that. But something that we're a part of every single
[Mark]:day, of course, is the now big world, a bigger world of podcasting. And I just wanted
[Mark]:to bring on someone that I know, someone that I trust, someone that I class as a friend,
[Mark]:someone that I knew would do a good job of chatting through. what it's like to
[Mark]:do the things that we do in podcasting, just so I had the chance to, I think, share
[Mark]:some of the things that I rarely get to share. So I wanna thank you for doing this,
[Mark]:mate, but I'm actually, I'm just gonna hand over to you. I'm gonna let you run the
[Mark]:podcast accelerator. So for you, the ever-present listener, you're in fine, safe
[Mark]:hands with Mr. Danny Brown.
[Danny Brown]:Thank you, Mark, and I will try not to break your show.
[Mark]:Hahaha.
[Danny Brown]:So yeah, I think what I'm looking forward to is picking your brain about, obviously,
[Danny Brown]:you've been in podcasting for 10 years, at least now. You've got the scars
[Danny Brown]:and gray hair starting to show for it. So I'm sure you've got a lot to talk
[Danny Brown]:about. And I know with the podcast accelerator relaunching, it's a good opportunity.
[Danny Brown]:So kind of a catch up of the show, the industry, what's coming down the
[Danny Brown]:line, that kind of stuff. So thanks for inviting me on to be that kind of
[Danny Brown]:co-host for this episode.
[Mark]:It's a pleasure, there's been a lot of change just even in the hiatus the year
[Mark]:off from this show so it's been a big a big industry shift you know a lot of things
[Mark]:kind of been tweaked some things have stayed the same that I think will inevitably
[Mark]:always stay the same but yeah I'm looking forward to digging him.
[Danny Brown]:Yeah, and also the show, I mean, it's four years old now this month. So Happy
[Danny Brown]:Birthday Podcast Accelerator,
[Mark]:Thank
[Danny Brown]:probably
[Mark]:you.
[Danny Brown]:about the same age as Cactiway, I would have thought. Four years old, 2019,
[Danny Brown]:and it's got over
[Mark]:Do you know what?
[Danny Brown]:300 episodes.
[Mark]:Yeah, sorry to interrupt on that. You're right. That shocked me a little bit. I forgot
[Mark]:about that. Yeah, we launched Captivate into like an alpha. Ian Anderson-Gray started.
[Mark]:He was the first user on Captivate. And I forced Kieran to let him on in April
[Mark]:2019 when Kieran had gone on holiday. I was like, it'll be fine. Just let Ian on.
[Mark]:It'll be all right. So yeah, that's weird. And actually, I think on May the 4th
[Mark]:as well, Spark Rebellion launched as well in 2019, which is.
[Danny Brown]:Wow.
[Mark]:Yeah, how bizarre. Never thought of any of that.
[Danny Brown]:a lot of birthdays and obviously your little girl who obviously we'll mention
[Danny Brown]:later, little Dory, she must be approaching her first birthday now I think,
[Danny Brown]:or over her
[Mark]:Oh
[Danny Brown]:first
[Mark]:she's
[Danny Brown]:birthday.
[Mark]:beyond it, she's 15 months in 20 days, which is
[Danny Brown]:Oh my
[Mark]:terrifying.
[Danny Brown]:lord. So as I mentioned, I mean, congratulations, happy birthday on the fourth
[Danny Brown]:anniversary, fourth birthday of podcast accelerator. What was the initial
[Danny Brown]:goal when you initially launched the show and how has that changed over time
[Danny Brown]:for map ideas, etc.
[Mark]:I think for me, the goal has always been the same with any kind of content that
[Mark]:I've put out and not only content, but any kind of product that I've put out, whether
[Mark]:that's my original excellence expected content, whether that is podcast websites,
[Mark]:which we still have and we still run, whether it's Captivate, whether the Accelerator,
[Mark]:my old shows, or Seven Minute Mentor, Spark Rebellion. Number one, first and foremost,
[Mark]:to have fun. We've both been in corporate, we've both been in jobs that we're not keen
[Mark]:on. We've both, even when I wasn't in corporate, I left the corporate world. 18 years
[Mark]:ago now, which is terrifying. And even, even, even having clients at an agency, you
[Mark]:do a lot of work that you really just aren't that keen on because it's just the way
[Mark]:of having your own business. So everything, my entire goal, the whole thing and the whole
[Mark]:idea for me in podcasting was to get into this thing because I love it. Similar
[Mark]:to you get into this thing because I actually love it. And I'd still podcast. you
[Mark]:know, even if I didn't work in it. And in fact, I have podcasted, even though I've
[Mark]:had the podcast accelerator down for a year. I've still done Spike Rebellion. I've
[Mark]:done the new show, It's How Old, which you kindly shared yesterday, which is launching
[Mark]:shortly. So for me, it was very much about like, find that fun first. And then when
[Mark]:it comes to, you know, can we make a living from it? Let's see how that goes. And
[Mark]:I've always been quite sensible with that. So when it came to launching the podcast
[Mark]:accelerator, it was sort of a continuation of that. And it was really focused on Like
[Mark]:you know me, I'm pretty anti-guru. I think there's a lot of people that see an opportunity
[Mark]:in industries or in things that are doing well, dive in, sell a load of snake oil
[Mark]:and smoke and mirrors, and then bail again. Like you see all the time, the people
[Mark]:in 2008 that were social media gurus, 18 months ago were NFT gurus and guess what?
[Mark]:Now they're AI gurus and each one of them has been a podcasting guru and people
[Mark]:like that are cropping up all the time. So for me, with the accelerator, it was sort
[Mark]:of a different offer. It was. almost a promise of no hyperbole, no BS, no like getting
[Mark]:over excited about things that might be a flash in the pan, getting over excited,
[Mark]:like remember Clubhouse, like we're not
[Danny Brown]:Yeah.
[Mark]:getting excited about that, we didn't get excited about that, we did it sensibly.
[Mark]:So it was very much a way of keeping things grounded, but also I think an important
[Mark]:aspect of this is, I podcast, I've done... I don't know, 1,300, 1,400 episodes of varying
[Mark]:podcasts, plus countless interviews on other people's podcasts at this point. And
[Mark]:it was very important for me to understand that I'm a podcaster, but actually what I really
[Mark]:do is I'm a product guy. I'm a sort of lapsed developer and I'm really a brand
[Mark]:marketer. I'm not a technical marketer, I'm more of a brand marketer. So all of those
[Mark]:skills, maybe outside of the development part. are really things that people need to
[Mark]:grow their podcast. So it was how can I fulfill all the promises, no BS, no hyperbole,
[Mark]:no getting people excited about things, thinking it's a silver bullet, or I'm gonna
[Mark]:10X this and 50X this if you just sign up for my 97 bucks a month course. But how
[Mark]:can I also take all these things that I do every day with Captivate and that I've
[Mark]:done for the last 18 years for myself and bring them to podcasters because they are
[Mark]:skills that podcasters need, even though... No one tells you that they need them. So it
[Mark]:was, that's the goal with the accelerator. And I've tried different formats. I've tried
[Mark]:short form, long form, we do interviews and it's about being adaptable. So that was
[Mark]:the goal was to just give some no BS education from the other, you know, I suppose
[Mark]:the elements of what I do for a living that people don't see when they see me on a
[Mark]:podcast because they don't realize I do these, you know, the actual nine to five
[Mark]:is this stuff. Bring that to podcasters, help them to learn from it. and be there to
[Mark]:answer questions without trying to sell them anything. So yeah, that part of it is
[Mark]:important.
[Danny Brown]:And you'd mention, obviously, experimentation with formats, length, frequency.
[Danny Brown]:I mentioned you've had over 300, 332 episodes, I think, if I've got the exact
[Danny Brown]:number right, in the space of four years, which is more than one episode
[Danny Brown]:a week, if you do it on an average. So you were very, very busy, for want of a
[Danny Brown]:better word, with the show and all the other stuff. You've got Captivate,
[Danny Brown]:you've got your other hobbyist podcast, et cetera. But it went silent for
[Danny Brown]:a year, a complete year. It just went switched off. And you did publish an episode.
[Danny Brown]:about taking a hiatus back last April, I think maybe March. And it did go quiet
[Danny Brown]:for a whole year. And you launched, relaunched with a bonus episode last week about,
[Danny Brown]:you know, they talked a bit about the hiatus, you know, why you took it. And
[Danny Brown]:you actually mentioned that you had come super, super close to actually just
[Danny Brown]:closing it all down, switching it off, sending out a final episode. But you
[Danny Brown]:changed your mind and here you are with the new revamped relaunch show. And
[Danny Brown]:I know you're, you know, you've got a lot of ideas for how that's gonna look.
[Danny Brown]:with a new format. So what changed your mind? What excited you again about this,
[Danny Brown]:the short and your insights?
[Mark]:I think the thing that excited me about bringing the accelerator back, and I do want
[Mark]:to kind of bookend this with, and I mentioned this in the episode last week, I
[Mark]:legitimately recorded a This Is Finished Goodbye episode. I recorded it, I wrote the
[Mark]:script for it, I'd done everything. I think the reason that I brought it back and
[Mark]:the reason that I couldn't bring myself to publish that was, I've always got something
[Mark]:to say. You know me, I'm always pretty mouthy and I still do a lot of other people's
[Mark]:podcasts. But I was just burnt out. You know, the reason I took the hiatus that
[Mark]:I mentioned in last week's bonus episode was I was simply burnt out. There's only so
[Mark]:much content you can do about the same sort of thing. So I think I had to restock
[Mark]:the mind a little bit on actually what is important to people? What do people want
[Mark]:to hear from me? But also it was, we had a lot of transition. behind the scenes,
[Mark]:even probably you didn't see it as even part of Captivate, you know, when we integrated
[Mark]:with Global, there's just a lot of things that you've got to do, just stuff that, you
[Mark]:know, with the best will in the world, you wanna put an episode out on a Monday, which
[Mark]:is like the worst time to publish an episode, because it's Monday. And that was,
[Mark]:I think, highlighted by the fact that someone just needed something from me on a
[Mark]:Monday. So there was that element to it where I thought, I thought, look, enough
[Mark]:time has passed now where we can, you know, we're integrated well into global. We've
[Mark]:got brilliant product releases. We've got a mega release coming out next week with
[Mark]:Captivate, which is a huge release, which we'll talk about after it's been released.
[Mark]:But the ability to do the day-to-day stuff, the stuff that I enjoy doing, has come
[Mark]:back a little bit more flexibly because that major integration... Interglobal was done.
[Mark]:Also, of course, I had such a big personal year with Doc being born and just kind of helping
[Mark]:Sam through that transition, me going through that transition and just the bandwidth
[Mark]:and the brain space required to produce good content, it just wasn't there. And I think
[Mark]:this is the thing. I went through so many changes with the podcast Accelerator because
[Mark]:I wanted to keep producing good content. And to me, that was reflective of how the industry
[Mark]:shifted. Like I started with a, I think it was a daily show and then a five, five times
[Mark]:a week show and then twice a week. And it went from short form to getting progressively
[Mark]:longer to the point where when I stopped the show and went on hiatus last year, it was
[Mark]:very long form. You know, there are some eight, 9,000 word pieces that I recorded
[Mark]:as audio, which are great, but they require a day to do. And that to me was reflective
[Mark]:of like where the industry went. There's enough podcasts now that you can get content
[Mark]:on anything that you want. So in order to stand out, you've got to be really good.
[Mark]:And that was that evolution of the accelerator was short form was good. Back then, it didn't
[Mark]:have to be as well thought out and well planned because I still had a lot of good to
[Mark]:give and a lot of value and a lot of actionable stuff. But as the industry has progressed
[Mark]:and more listeners come on board and the industry started to fracture in some ways,
[Mark]:but unifying in other ways. I had to just keep refining that and refining that.
[Mark]:And I didn't... Last year when I went on the hiatus, it was sort of a, how do I keep
[Mark]:delivering this really good content at a time where we've got a new child, we are
[Mark]:integrating into a much, much bigger business than ours that thankfully leaves us
[Mark]:alone, you know, we still, we were pretty autonomous, we do great work for everyone,
[Mark]:but still requires my attention. How do I give the best content to the listener?
[Mark]:It just wasn't fair. to give substandard content. Like I'm pretty open with that. And
[Mark]:I think part of, part of the responsibility as someone that educates in podcasting is to
[Mark]:be really open and honest when you can't give good content out because there are that
[Mark]:many podcasters out there that think I wanna do great content, but I just don't
[Mark]:have the time to do it. What should I do? Should I stop? Should I carry on? Should
[Mark]:I hate this? And I think I could have sort of BSed my way through it. and produced
[Mark]:content that other people would have thought was good enough, but I wouldn't have
[Mark]:been happy with it. And I didn't see the point in doing like, you know, let you
[Mark]:carry on with PodChat because it's brilliant content. Let the other people that are passionate
[Mark]:about the industry give that amazing content at a time when I wasn't able to do
[Mark]:it because there's enough space for everyone. So. What I think what reignited me
[Mark]:was, you know, all that burden disappearing, you know, we settled into every... all the
[Mark]:new facets of life have been settled into now. And I had people asking, you know,
[Mark]:I literally had people asking. Two things actually, when are you coming back? Brilliant.
[Mark]:That was amazing to hear. The second thing was, I got people asking, Mark, what
[Mark]:do you think about this? So it might be like, what do you think about YouTube and
[Mark]:podcasting? What do you think about this course I've been offered? What do you
[Mark]:think about this sponsorship deal? What do you think about X, Y and Z? And I get a
[Mark]:lot of emails and DMs about this all the time. And I thought to myself, people still
[Mark]:seem to want that straight talking advice. You know, they're not looking for the, you
[Mark]:know, like when someone asks what microphone to buy, they're not looking for the, well,
[Mark]:here are 10 and I'm not going to commit to one in case it's wrong and you think I'm
[Mark]:an idiot. I'm not that guy, I'm the other guy that's like, well, these nine aren't
[Mark]:very good, use this one. You know, I'm very straight talking with that and people
[Mark]:seem to want that and the appetite didn't disappear. I'll tell you what's fascinating,
[Mark]:a lot of people think that when you go on hiatus you lose all your listeners. You
[Mark]:do not. I've had the highest download episode last week when I put the bonus episode
[Mark]:out, the first six hours were the highest downloads. that I've seen across the show and
[Mark]:that's with barely any promo.
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:It wasn't featured in pod news on that day. There was nothing special about it. I've
[Mark]:had the highest number of downloads and the back catalog has continued to grow.
[Mark]:It has continued to receive downloads that the high just that hiatus episode that
[Mark]:I put out like March 22, April 2022. Thousands of people listen to it, which is
[Mark]:styling and that's continued to grow. So I think that was the final factor was that
[Mark]:the appetite was still there. Because I will tell you this just to long windedly
[Mark]:finish up this answer. The landscape gets busy. All right. Everyone now has an opinion
[Mark]:on podcasting and you know, there are podcasts about podcasting and how to grow your
[Mark]:podcast and this, that and the other. And I think one of the other things that I
[Mark]:didn't mention in that episode last week was sort of maybe the feeling that I didn't
[Mark]:have enough to say to compete with all that other stuff because a lot of people, like
[Mark]:there's great people in the industry like yourself and a lot of people like Ariel
[Mark]:and people like James and Sam and putting out really good content, but there's a lot
[Mark]:of crap. There's a lot of people that have got really dodgy clickbait titles that
[Mark]:are podcasts about podcasting. And I thought to myself, can I really be bothered
[Mark]:trying to quote unquote compete with that? And I just thought, no, there's no point,
[Mark]:you know? And that changed. That changed this year when I realized I got my bandwidth
[Mark]:back. I've got everything back that I needed. I'd seen people asking for it. And
[Mark]:I thought, do you know what? It turns out people do want that straight talk. And
[Mark]:so, you know, sort of screw the gurus. I'm going to come back and be a pain in their
[Mark]:neck again. So, yeah, a long winded answer. But there was a lot to that. It's quite
[Mark]:a, it's quite a thinker that, you know.
[Danny Brown]:And I think to that point, it goes back to your ethos of putting only quality
[Danny Brown]:content out, not just being like the other 20, 30, 40 podcasters that talk about
[Danny Brown]:podcasting, which shows, you know, if you've got quality evergreen content,
[Danny Brown]:the audience will remain. You build up a loyal audience because they trust
[Danny Brown]:your content beforehand. They'll remain there for you, but you mentioned, obviously,
[Danny Brown]:they're waiting for that to come back. That's awesome to hear. We talked about,
[Danny Brown]:obviously, that the show is four years old. but you've been in the industry
[Danny Brown]:for 10 years, let's call it a good old simple decade, a nice decade, nice
[Danny Brown]:round number. And there must have been some, well we know there's been some
[Danny Brown]:changes, but for you specifically, what have you seen really different between
[Danny Brown]:podcasting today and podcasting in 2013?
[Mark]:There are so many things that have changed in the last 10 years, I think, of me being
[Mark]:in podcasting. The first thing I think that has remained, that's the first place to
[Mark]:start, I think, is the sense of community. I remember going to NMX in 2015 when we were
[Mark]:just, we'd just, we'd launch podcast websites, maybe two months before, 18th of
[Mark]:February. 2015, we launched podcast websites. And no one knew me. You know, I went
[Mark]:out and spoke there. I spoke at podcast movement that the year I spoke at NME, NMEU,
[Mark]:Mike and Isabella's gig 2015 and the community has remained. That was the big thing
[Mark]:that struck me. That's what sold me on podcasting. You know, prior to that, I was
[Mark]:at 2013 was myself and Gaz with our original show, Two Shots of the Head, Geek
[Mark]:Culture, DC stuff, brilliant. really loved that show, just like really loved doing
[Mark]:it, but it was a laugh, it was a hobby. And then 2014, I started my own personally
[Mark]:branded show, which led to where we are today, being as a direct path between all
[Mark]:of that. So the big thing that got me hooked on podcasting was the community, but
[Mark]:in particular, the independent community. So I went to an NMX. Yeah, I went to NMX in
[Mark]:2015 and there was Rob was there, Elsie was there, Todd, Rob Greenlee, Jess. Pretty
[Mark]:much that's it. I can remember, obviously just eat and drink with them. I met Jonathan
[Mark]:Oakes from Trivia Warfare who just started his show. So he's coming up on nearly a decade
[Mark]:as well. Ramona Rice, a few other people, Jordan Harbinger, Pat Flynn, you know, all
[Mark]:those people. were there and I was sold on this sense of community. No one knew me
[Mark]:but everyone embraced me. And it was the same and I've always tried to foster that.
[Mark]:So that's the thing that stayed the same amongst independent creators. That's why
[Mark]:I did so much travel and so many conferences because of that. The thing that has changed,
[Mark]:there's a number of different things. You and I have spoken about it before, and
[Mark]:I've written about this, bloody heck I wrote about this about six years ago, the
[Mark]:fracturing of the industry, and I wrote a piece a while ago, The Gap Between Indians
[Mark]:and Big Podcasting. And this idea that the 99% of podcasting is made up of independents
[Mark]:like you and I, trying to make our way in this hobbyist world. And then there's media,
[Mark]:there's The Wondery, Wondery was like for me the big company that came in and- really
[Mark]:set out their stall as being, we are a media company creating things with diverse
[Mark]:IP that can then be made into other things. It's not just a podcast. And we've
[Mark]:seen that much more wildly now. So whether it's, you know, whether it's Grim and Mild
[Mark]:with Aaron, whether it's, you know. Pineapple Street, obviously Wondery purchased
[Mark]:by Amazon, all the Spotify originals, Globals owned and operated stuff, the stuff,
[Mark]:First Action Bureau by Jerry Anderson's crew, Jamie and his team. This is all IP that
[Mark]:has been created to be media. And that's been the big thing because people worried about
[Mark]:that. Like in 2017, I remember doing a talk at Podcast Movement. when all this really
[Mark]:started to kick off, you know, serial was out, Sarah Koenig was the keynote or PM
[Mark]:in maybe Chicago, maybe Fort Worth, maybe the one maybe where Kevin Smith was at,
[Mark]:which was like geek heaven for me, I loved that. And it was, that was the time when
[Mark]:Indies like You and Me and The Hobbiest that have got like 200 downloads an episode
[Mark]:really started getting worried. And all these questions started coming out. What
[Mark]:does this mean for me? How do I grow my show? How do I monetize? Then you had like,
[Mark]:and there's nothing wrong with this, even though it's going to sound like there
[Mark]:is like the entrepreneur crew that was like, oh yeah, you can make a pile of money
[Mark]:from podcasting. Eh, eh, you can, but I can make a pile of money from being a brickie.
[Mark]:I can make a pile of money from tech. I can make a pile of money from golf. I can
[Mark]:make a pile of money from anything that I put all the practice time, effort and professionalism
[Mark]:into. That's not like, that's not rocket science or wizardry, is it? So that element
[Mark]:fractured it where big podcasting came around. And then the second thing that happened
[Mark]:around the same time for me, and this is another big change, is tech started getting
[Mark]:interested. So like VCs, and we've had it with Captivate, you know, I still get it
[Mark]:today, would you like investment for Captivate? No, I'm good. And people trying
[Mark]:to buy tech, and we saw all these crazy acquisitions, we saw Simplecast, we saw Stitcher.
[Mark]:change hands, we've seen all sorts, glow, we've seen obviously, captivate become
[Mark]:part of global. And all of these acquisitions. made the industry interest into people that
[Mark]:thought they wanted to be in an industry where they could make a quick book. And that
[Mark]:was the big change. Now it's a bit different, you know, that I think I actually think in
[Mark]:the last year that's changed. Maybe we'll get to that. But so we saw all that go
[Mark]:ahead and that scared a lot of the independent people. Those people, the very same people
[Mark]:like embraced me through community were worried. What does this mean? So I think in
[Mark]:short, the way to summarize that is when I got into podcasting, it was. It was
[Mark]:the best way to phrase this. It was a media that had a foot in different industries.
[Mark]:So what I mean by that is it was sort of like I can create my own content. This is
[Mark]:great and anyone can listen to it and it doesn't matter what I talk about because
[Mark]:it's my podcast, but it's not an industry as such. There's a little bit of ad revenue.
[Mark]:There's maybe like 180,000 shows. But we're really like in the tech industry, because
[Mark]:we're a hosting company like Libsyn or whatever. Or we're like a radio company,
[Mark]:so we're in the radio industry. But now, podcasting is the industry. It employs
[Mark]:that many people and it's the, if you're a digital marketer, you've probably got, for
[Mark]:if you work for a large enough company, a budget for podcast sponsorships where you
[Mark]:didn't before. The whole programmatic side has really matured. the whole way that
[Mark]:we measure things continues to mature. So I think that's the big change. It's become
[Mark]:an actual bonafide industry. And there's a lot that goes along with that, but I think
[Mark]:that's the biggest change. There's a lot of sort of sub headers beneath that, but
[Mark]:that's the headline, I think. And I think one of the pieces of advice that I think
[Mark]:I would give to anyone getting into podcasting is to sort of ignore that. Like
[Mark]:if you create a YouTube channel, you don't think, oh my word, I'm not gonna create
[Mark]:a YouTube channel because it'll never grow because Netflix exists or movies. You
[Mark]:know, so why would you, I get people all the time and you'll be the same, wow, is
[Mark]:podcasting too busy? Is it too late to start a podcast? I know, of course not,
[Mark]:we better stop writing books. If that's the way you think, you know, we better stop
[Mark]:making new films or. better stop creating new Netflix series. All right, it's not, it's
[Mark]:not about that. And it baffles me, especially the hobbyists. You know, a lot of people get
[Mark]:into podcasting and ask genuinely as hobbyists, and they'll say, is it too late?
[Mark]:Are these good numbers? I'm like, well, if you decide to play golf, right, if your
[Mark]:neighbor comes around and says, do you wanna go out for a knock? You say, well, I've
[Mark]:never played before. And they say, well, here's some spare clubs. Let's get into it.
[Mark]:You are literally not gonna go home the next day and go, right. time to create,
[Mark]:grow and monetize my golf game.
[Danny Brown]:I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
[Mark]:You're just not, it's like, it's nuts. And it's so, I think that's another thing that's
[Mark]:been a, like a bit of a, almost like running with a parachute on. It holds a lot
[Mark]:of people back, this idea that you have to monetize the thing. When we all know that
[Mark]:to monetize something, you've just got to be passionate about it, because then you
[Mark]:get good at it, you know. competence leads to confidence and confidence leads to
[Mark]:consistency and consistency leads to people starting to notice you and people noticing
[Mark]:you leads to money and that's just like marketing. So yeah, that's been such a huge
[Mark]:shift, people worrying about it's now an industry, is it too late for me to get into
[Mark]:it? How do I make money doing it? And you know, better than anyone else, you know,
[Mark]:the way that you build fandom and the way that you make money from fandom is like
[Mark]:to genuinely focus on building fans and friends. And to bring this right back to
[Mark]:the beginning of the question and the answer, like that's what people were doing
[Mark]:back then is embracing the people around them and building them as an audience and friendship
[Mark]:group and so on and so forth. So it's sort of ironic because a lot has changed, but
[Mark]:so much has stayed the same.
[Danny Brown]:I wonder if part of that is down to, and I know you've spoken about this before,
[Danny Brown]:we see the community, the community is awesome, but you also see maybe some old
[Danny Brown]:guard podcasters or old guard tech leaders, etc. The industry is what you
[Danny Brown]:mentioned as the teenage stage. You know, we've gone past the baby steps, etc.
[Danny Brown]:We've sort of got a, we're a foothold in the media entertainment industry.
[Danny Brown]:We know what podcasting is, what it wants to achieve, what we want to achieve.
[Danny Brown]:But it's still very much all down to... you need an RSS feed with a podcast
[Danny Brown]:host or some kind of hosting solution and an MP3 file for your audio. And
[Danny Brown]:that stayed pretty much the same since the first days of podcasting. And I wonder
[Danny Brown]:if that reliance on RSS or the idea of reliance on RSS might be holding the
[Danny Brown]:industry back when it comes to new podcasts coming on, other companies getting
[Danny Brown]:involved, et cetera. Do you think that's the case or? You think that we're just
[Danny Brown]:talking about or concentrating on the wrong thing there?
[Mark]:Well, someone's after some social media clips, aren't they?
[Danny Brown]:Ha ha
[Mark]:I like this.
[Mark]:I think the idea of RSS being at the centre of podcasting is brilliant and open
[Mark]:podcasting is super important. Captivate supports that through podcasting 2.0 and being
[Mark]:part of the PSP, whether you agree with those initiatives or not, there's no harm in
[Mark]:them at the minute.
[Mark]:does an RSS feed harm the growth of podcasting? I wouldn't say so because, like,
[Mark]:sort of who cares as a listener or as a tech company? So take someone like Spotify.
[Mark]:And I've said this before in interviews. I wrote a piece ages ago, like five years ago,
[Mark]:saying that Spotify did not need RSS feeds and, you know, maybe they wouldn't use
[Mark]:them in the future. And I got absolutely battered by all of the... People that are friends,
[Mark]:that's the irony. You know, you're silly, you're naive, you don't know podcasts, and
[Mark]:they're like, you don't know tech. You know, and it was, guess what? Spotify don't
[Mark]:need RSS feeds, they don't. Neither does any player. They could choose to accept
[Mark]:via any other method, whether it's JSON, which they wouldn't do because it's pointless,
[Mark]:it's essentially an RSS feed again if, you know, for all intents and purposes. They
[Mark]:could choose to ingest via API. that it literally makes no difference to the listener
[Mark]:experience whatsoever. But it's not podcasting, right? So I see this on two hands.
[Mark]:On the first hand, I see the people forging ahead without RSS regardless. And so
[Mark]:people like Spotify, who cares? They're just going to do what they're going to do and
[Mark]:they're going to do it really well. And guess what? I'm really sorry to say, but
[Mark]:they are going to make money and get users doing it. because it's not a bad experience.
[Mark]:And you get a lot of people, I don't like listening to podcasts in Spotify because
[Mark]:it's not the best podcast app. My mom doesn't care. She ain't downloading Overcast
[Mark]:or Pocket Casts or Good Pods. She's got an iPhone, she doesn't even know Apple
[Mark]:Podcast is on there. And I ain't telling her because she thinks I work with computers.
[Mark]:So that's just a wasted Sunday. So the point is that it... The tech companies that
[Mark]:are going to do it will take the lambasting that they will get and they've weathered it
[Mark]:before, they will continue to weather anything that the industry throws at them because
[Mark]:they know what users do. That's the annoying thing to a lot of people in podcasting
[Mark]:is that people like Spotify come along and they know what users do because they're
[Mark]:really good at it, because they're massive and they've got billions and billions and billions
[Mark]:of events logged and data points tracked to analyze. So of course, you know, they're
[Mark]:going to forge ahead without RSS. That said.
[Mark]:The goal of podcasting and the point of originally being a podcaster was to syndicate
[Mark]:things yourself using an open RSS feed that anyone can read using a simple reader
[Mark]:and that should and will not ever go away. And that's fine. And that is how it should
[Mark]:be and it will continue to develop. It relies on a lot of other things developing,
[Mark]:so the apps developing, hosting companies like Captivate developing. standardization
[Mark]:which is sort of happening. It relies on users like caring which is the classic tech
[Mark]:adoption curve. They're not going to care for a long, long time that we've introduced
[Mark]:a new feature. They don't care. They don't care about value for value. What the
[Mark]:hell's that? Just give me some money. You know, that's like again, you know, my mom
[Mark]:doesn't care. Like take it down the next level. My brother who was more tech literate
[Mark]:and you know, much more tech savvy than my mom. Go and spend this Satoshi. go do what?
[Mark]:Alright, ok, well it's sort of like a pound, but imagine if a pound was really
[Mark]:not worth that much and you needed loads of them, and you can't really grab them. So
[Mark]:you know that sandwich you're going to get at dinner time, you can't get it with
[Mark]:that, sorry mate. He's not fussed, he don't want to do that. So to him it's transient,
[Mark]:it's like yeah that's cool, that's for the geeks. And that's a standard adoption curve,
[Mark]:like that always happens, look at Uber 10 years you know, to versus where it is now.
[Mark]:Look at podcasting 10 years ago, look at AI, look at the blockchain at large, you
[Mark]:know, so that's not, there's nothing wrong with that. That's just the normal adoption
[Mark]:curve. It's the cutting edge people, the early adopters and so on, and that's just
[Mark]:how adoption works. So I don't think RSS hinders it. I don't think RSS is going
[Mark]:away. I think we... all need to probably stop whining about the fact that it's not a
[Mark]:quote unquote podcast if it doesn't have an RSS feed because
[Mark]:like that is something that will hold our thinking back and I'm not saying we get
[Mark]:rid of RSS I would never say that like what would I do for work but the point is that
[Mark]:we can't I don't think we can close our minds and our thought processes down by
[Mark]:saying that this is not the thing because So here's the irony of that. If you start saying
[Mark]:things like, it's not a podcast unless these conditions are met, and this coming from
[Mark]:a big, big, big advocate for open podcasting and RSS feeds, but if you start saying things
[Mark]:like that and you advocate for the open podcast ecosystem, by saying things like that,
[Mark]:you become the gatekeeper
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:that you never... ever said should exist. You are Anakin Skywalker becoming the very
[Mark]:thing that you said you were going to destroy. And that's the problem. That you,
[Mark]:the balance is so tough with that. And I think the only way that we can solve that
[Mark]:is to continue to be open minded and say, look, you know what, maybe 10 years ago,
[Mark]:podcasts couldn't do this thing. And whatever that was, like, oh, podcasts don't
[Mark]:have adverts. Podcasts don't have programmatic adverts. Well, not right now they don't, but
[Mark]:who knows what's going to happen? Who knows where they're going to be in 10 more
[Mark]:years time? So yeah, an interesting, insightful question. And I think to summarise
[Mark]:it, we shouldn't get too caught up on RSS. It's in its rightful place. It can develop,
[Mark]:it will develop. And that is the core of open podcasting, which should and will remain
[Mark]:for the vast majority of podcasters. However, those that feel less strongly about
[Mark]:open podcasting far less stronger than you and I do and the other hosting friends
[Mark]:that we've got, they will forge ahead regardless of RSS and that just comes down
[Mark]:to that fracture that we talked about between indie and big podcasting and that's
[Mark]:just the way of the world. It's just tech. That's the way it goes. So interesting.
[Mark]:Maybe we'll do this again in 10 years.
[Danny Brown]:I might still have some hair by then.
[Mark]:I won't mate, definitely not.
[Danny Brown]:It does remind me though, and I'm glad you mentioned the open podcast project.
[Danny Brown]:I can know you've got the podcast in 2.0. We are involved in the podcast standards
[Danny Brown]:project, et cetera. And it does kind of go back to the community where we should
[Danny Brown]:always should be thinking about as a listener in the community. What's the
[Danny Brown]:benefit to them? They don't care about what happens behind the scenes. It's
[Danny Brown]:like if you go to the movie theater and you watch a 3D movie. you get the 3D specs,
[Danny Brown]:it looks amazing. I went to see the original avatar, and that just blew me
[Danny Brown]:away. Like the 3D, that was probably one of the best, only good one about 3D. But
[Danny Brown]:as a watcher, I don't care that you need X amount of lenses, you need them
[Danny Brown]:all focused at the same time, you need these colors lined up, et cetera.
[Danny Brown]:I just have to put on the glasses, and I've got 3D. So it's like podcasting. I
[Danny Brown]:open my app, or I press play on our web player, and that's it, I'm good
[Danny Brown]:to go. So I think, yeah, it's like you say, I'm hoping that, you know. the
[Danny Brown]:vocal counter advocates, if you like, I guess, aren't the ones that are listened
[Danny Brown]:to the most, because I think that would maybe, you know, possibly hinder
[Danny Brown]:the industry as far as audience and listener benefits go.
[Mark]:Yeah, I agree. I think that the way to progress podcasting and the way that podcasting
[Mark]:should and will continue to progress is through balance. I think it's the only way,
[Mark]:you know, the... I don't think you can think in any industry in such binary terms
[Mark]:as this is the definition of X because it might have been, and I think that's why
[Mark]:people get upset by it because that's what it used to be and that's the only thing
[Mark]:it used to be, but now it's such a diverse... set of opportunities for businesses like Spotify
[Mark]:that want to come in and challenge it. And like I said, I'm not advocating for Spotify,
[Mark]:but nor am I advocating for RSS. I'm advocating for balance. I'm advocating for
[Mark]:let's progress the things that we are passionate about, but don't close the doors
[Mark]:on other things. Because if we do, how can we take the best elements from everything
[Mark]:to... give the very best to our creators, to our listeners and so on. And you know, you've
[Mark]:only got, like you said, 3D. That's a great example. We had the, you know, avatar
[Mark]:in 3D. It's fantastic. It was pretty good. It looked well. But then guess what?
[Mark]:All TVs became 3D for a little while. And then people realized it was crap. But what
[Mark]:else came out of that? iMacs, which is absolutely brilliant and it is stunning.
[Mark]:And when it's used well, It's amazing as an experience. There are certain films,
[Mark]:Spider-Man, No Way Home, any Star Wars that you are only gonna see in IMAX because
[Mark]:it is that good. And that's like the bit that came out of 3D. The rest of it didn't.
[Mark]:And that's the thing with podcasting. It's like, it sort of iron sharpens iron sort
[Mark]:of scenario. You know, you have to put up against something to develop, but the risk,
[Mark]:I think, for a lot of people in podcasting, especially the industry, It doesn't sharpen
[Mark]:iron. What it does is it forces that thinking to retract and to become stagnant,
[Mark]:to hold on to the things that were as opposed to looking at what is possible. And
[Mark]:I do believe that's why we're fortunate at Captivate to have such good balance. You
[Mark]:know, we implement a lot of great things, but not rashly. And we did that with the podcasting
[Mark]:2.0 stuff. A lot of people, including our previous advisors, were saying, you're
[Mark]:behind the curve with podcasting 2.0. That's cool. Like, I'm behind your curve, behind
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:actually your curve, but our users, the people who will, if we introduce something
[Mark]:that is difficult and new for them that they've got to spend time learning, may well
[Mark]:stop podcasting because they're worried that they can't keep up. I'm actually in front
[Mark]:of their curve, and I know their curve, and their curve is not where your curve is.
[Mark]:And again, that's how industries work, that the early adopters, they're the real bleeding
[Mark]:edge people. There are the people that are toeing the line between being interested
[Mark]:in the industry and sort of just kind of being in it by accident because they're
[Mark]:creating it. So there's a lot that's going on there. And I think the risk with the
[Mark]:podcast industry is that it becomes not becomes, but. Some of the more prominent
[Mark]:voices remain binary. It's this or that. And. you know, that's only a risk to them.
[Mark]:They're gonna be the ones whose curves no one really cares about if they're not careful.
[Mark]:So you gotta watch that as a founder. That's one thing that I'm conscious of. You've
[Mark]:gotta be sensible and you've gotta listen and you've gotta be empathetic with things.
[Mark]:So yeah, again, a lot in that, but I mean, we could probably do 10 episodes on that,
[Mark]:I think.
[Danny Brown]:Hmm. It's like comparing the Pirelli calendar to the Michelin calendar.
[Danny Brown]:That's
[Mark]:Ha ha ha
[Danny Brown]:like
[Mark]:ha!
[Danny Brown]:a little bit differences there for anybody that knows these calendars.
[Mark]:That is, that takes me back to like 1989, taking my car to a garage
[Danny Brown]:Mm.
[Mark]:in like Barnsley in the north of England, yeah. I get that, that's a reference that not
[Mark]:many people are going to get.
[Danny Brown]:I know, no, we might have to make this a video segment just to like, you
[Danny Brown]:know, just throw that out there on a snip or something. Now, mostly you mentioned
[Danny Brown]:that the industry from a podcast point of view, we're now looking at kind of
[Danny Brown]:three distinct podcasters, hobbyist, serious indie podcaster, then the multi million
[Danny Brown]:dollar media companies. And one of the biggest for all, especially the serious
[Danny Brown]:indie podcaster and the media companies is monetization. monetization, especially
[Danny Brown]:the last couple of years, from working with advertisers and sponsors to Spotify
[Danny Brown]:paying for exclusives, with an eye on attracting bigger advertisers to the
[Danny Brown]:platform. And there's been mixed results. I'm curious why you think it's been
[Danny Brown]:hard for so many to effectively address monetization.
[Mark]:My microphone wouldn't unmute then. I was gonna edit this out. I thought I'll edit
[Mark]:that out, but then this is an interview
[Danny Brown]:I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
[Mark]:with me. So I'm just gonna leave it in. That was funny. So podcasts, well, monetization
[Mark]:of anything, not just podcasts, is very, very difficult because you have to get people
[Mark]:to do different things in a reasonably standardized sequence. You have to get them
[Mark]:to look at something, listen to something, move from one place to another to look at something
[Mark]:else or listen to something else, and then do a number of different things to quantify
[Mark]:and qualify whether or not what they've heard or seen or read or whatever results in
[Mark]:some ROI. And that's a really, like, high-level marketing thought process. But it's
[Mark]:the same with everything, whether you're selling software, whether you're selling cars,
[Mark]:whether you're selling Star Wars figurines, guitars, or your audience on a podcast. And
[Mark]:the challenges, I think the challenges came in the earlier days where there wasn't
[Mark]:much tech available to do decent programmatic, decent dynamic ad work within podcasts. That's
[Mark]:getting better. That is getting better. You know, we do it. Every other host does it.
[Mark]:But what happened was that the sponsorships became like the be all and end all. And you
[Mark]:know, some people discovered the fact that you could do fixed price direct sales.
[Mark]:And you know, obviously, Host Red was the real queen of the crop when it came to
[Mark]:sponsorships because they performed much better. But what that did was it left
[Mark]:creators with this problem. And it doesn't matter the size of the creator, it still left
[Mark]:them with a problem. All right. So if I'm a brand. and I think I'm gonna take a punt
[Mark]:on this podcast lark. I might allocate three or six months or even 12 months to this.
[Mark]:But then I've got to go into a meeting later, or I've got to look myself if I'm like
[Mark]:a small business that's took a punt on a smaller podcast, and I've got to say,
[Mark]:what did that do?
[Mark]:And it's really difficult to understand. Now, of course, we understand things like brand
[Mark]:uplift. We understand the way to measure things like that. But again, like I said with
[Mark]:my mum earlier, you know, the equivalent of my mum's listening mindset, which is I don't
[Mark]:care what happens as long as I get the good stuff, is really, I don't care what happens
[Mark]:as a marketer as long as I get the results at the end. But we can't show that, you know,
[Mark]:so we started doing things like Go to this link with this coupon code, which is brilliant
[Mark]:for some things and rubbish for others. Like, if I listen to a podcast, what are the
[Mark]:chances of me mowing the lawn and thinking, oh, you bloody hell, you got me. That's right.
[Danny Brown]:Yeah.
[Mark]:I need this new mattress right now. I'm going to stop this lawn mowing. I'm going
[Mark]:to get me a mattress. Doesn't work, all right? So it's very often about brand uplift
[Mark]:and about recollection. And we know that, you know, from the Edison data, from
[Mark]:the infinite dial stuff, We know that brand recall is really high amongst podcast
[Mark]:listeners. For that reason, you get piping into the beret of someone. So yeah,
[Mark]:I get that, but that's difficult to measure. So what that inadvertently did was
[Mark]:it meant that in order to get the right number out of the bottom end, just standard
[Mark]:marketing, you needed to put a pile of numbers in the top, which meant that in
[Mark]:order to do that, you needed downloads and you needed shows that had big downloads.
[Mark]:But that doesn't help you and I, the standard independent podcaster, that's doing
[Mark]:this for a living. So that people to obviously direct sell at fixed price. That's
[Mark]:great. I'm a big advocate of that model because I think there's a lot of power in those
[Mark]:kind of niches or for our American friends, the niches, but you're wrong, the niches. And
[Mark]:what went on then was people would, they'd find themselves having the same problem.
[Mark]:All right, I will fix price this. I've got 250 listeners per episode. Give me a grand
[Mark]:a month. It's a super tight audience. You'll definitely sell some stuff. But then
[Mark]:they didn't because that... that relevance at the right time is not right. I'm not ready
[Mark]:to buy the thing, but I know about the thing. So I'm at the attribution back to the
[Mark]:podcast might not happen for six, nine, 12 months because I'm not ready for that mattress
[Mark]:until a year later, but I still remember hearing it. So that caused a lot of people
[Mark]:to then fret about, and this is at every level, by the way, this is not like just the
[Mark]:Indies. This is people
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:like Spotify offering big MRGs, minimum revenue guarantees to like Joe Rogan and whatever,
[Mark]:signing bonuses or whatever. That's all stopped or certainly there needs to be
[Mark]:a damn good business case for that sort of stuff and it's much lower cost than it was
[Mark]:two years ago because they're having the same problems. I thought, well, how do
[Mark]:I quantify all this stuff? So what that has led to is what we've always advocated at
[Mark]:Captivate and what any person with any common sense whatsoever in any business role
[Mark]:in any business in any country in the world has always advocated for eggs and bloody
[Mark]:baskets. Right, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you want to make money podcasting,
[Mark]:don't make all your money from sponsorships. So this is about diversity in monetization.
[Mark]:And we're seeing this a heck of a lot already. We're seeing it through memberships
[Mark]:and subscription models, exclusive access, early access, windowed content. We're seeing
[Mark]:it through tips, listener support. We're seeing all that sort of stuff that all the
[Mark]:best hosts are really doing very, very well. There are some rudimentary implementations
[Mark]:of that. but it can still work. And the point is that diversity monetization, spreading
[Mark]:your eggs amongst many different baskets, activates a range of different fans. So it
[Mark]:will activate the casual fans that wanna chuck you a fiver. It'll activate the people
[Mark]:like you do with PodChat that wanna subscribe to the premium feed and get exclusive
[Mark]:or early access content. It will allow you to do things like be selective over your
[Mark]:sponsors. And guess what? If you do good work, you will get direct sponsorship,
[Mark]:which... Theoretically, if you carry on doing good work, you should elevate yourself
[Mark]:to being able to do dynamic programmatic marketplace style sponsorships, like spot sales,
[Mark]:where this is all fed through an ad server. We enter the big leagues and we enter
[Mark]:the realm of CPM based, cost per thousand downloads based advertising. So it's a progression,
[Mark]:it's diversity in monetization. And those challenges exist at every single level.
[Mark]:I know some of the biggest podcasts in the world who could and do. have CPM based
[Mark]:sponsorships, they bolster their revenue with predictable recurring money that comes
[Mark]:in every month from their membership subscribers. Because eggs in baskets. So it's
[Mark]:a challenge, but it sort of isn't as well. And I think this is one of the, like
[Mark]:one of the frustrating things about all the kind of guff that was perpetuated by
[Mark]:the online
[Mark]:2014 to 2018 ish when it was really prevalent. Like the, create a podcast and you
[Mark]:will monetize it. I know you won't. You'll know this better than anyone. Build
[Mark]:a website and they will come. No, they won't.
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:Open a shop, they'll come. No, they won't. Put a song on Spotify, you'll get listens.
[Mark]:No, you won't. Put a YouTube video, people will watch it. No, no, no, no, no, no.
[Mark]:It requires a lot of other stuff. Marketing. So I don't like, it's not any more complex
[Mark]:than anything else, but the difference is twofold across the entire podcasting industry.
[Mark]:Listening is passive. It's not active. Like I'm looking at you now and we're actively
[Mark]:engaged. I watch YouTube, I'm actively engaged. I watch The Mandalorian, I'm actively
[Mark]:engaged. Podcasting is passive. So I've got to really get someone, you know, recollection,
[Mark]:boom, boom, boom, hit me with a brand, hit me with a brand, hit me with a brand, hit
[Mark]:me with a brand, hit me with a brand. So when I need the mattress, I'm like, that
[Mark]:bloody brand that I heard on that podcast, oh, of course, that's what it is. The second
[Mark]:problem is that, you know, if you build a business, you need to do all this same stuff.
[Mark]:You get your first sale through a lot of hard work, a lot of marketing, a lot of
[Mark]:promotion, a lot of people knowing about you. But a lot of the time that's your business.
[Mark]:90 odd percent of podcasters that we talk to. are doing it because they love it.
[Mark]:That's the equivalent of me spending two hours a week on my golf tops, going out
[Mark]:there after the two hours a week and being like, why do I still slice it then? Because
[Mark]:I don't have the time to do anything else. Of course, that's fine. It's a hobby.
[Mark]:So I think podcasting has these challenges across the board. It
[Mark]:like literally learn marketing and understand that it takes time. That's why we exist, is
[Mark]:to help people with that. So yeah, a big complex issue I think that we could, again,
[Mark]:we could spend a heck of a lot of time on, but it's, I think it warrants further discussion
[Mark]:probably later down the line. Maybe we'll do this again with a couple of other
[Mark]:people on as well, but there's a lot, there's a lot to that. But the basic, the basis
[Mark]:is anyone can only make money. if other people know enough to want to be exposed to
[Mark]:what they do. That's it, that's just the rule.
[Danny Brown]:And it does seem that you mentioned Spotify, you mentioned the CPI model of a lot
[Danny Brown]:of the bigger advertisers. It does seem that a lot of the news that came
[Danny Brown]:out of the industry where Spotify's cutting exclusives, Amazon cut exclusives,
[Danny Brown]:podcast agencies or media companies are closing down or laying people off. A lot
[Danny Brown]:of that's based around those that are only really involved in ad model as
[Danny Brown]:opposed to multiple streams of revenue. And that's, I know Captivates Our
[Danny Brown]:goal with Captivate is to really help the indie podcaster grow the shop, save
[Danny Brown]:time, save money, but grow and make money. So as you mentioned, you need to
[Danny Brown]:learn marketing and you need to allocate time to that to really bring the
[Danny Brown]:audience in that helps you get these listeners and XYZ into sponsors, revenue,
[Danny Brown]:memberships, etc. If someone asked you as a podcaster, okay, there's 10
[Danny Brown]:different things that I can do. What are the two or three things that I can
[Danny Brown]:really focus on now to try and get to that stage?
[Mark]:If I was going to grow a fresh podcast from scratch, I'd focus on two particular areas.
[Mark]:I'd focus on short-term, near-sighted marketing, if you like, and long-term gain
[Mark]:marketing. So I'll start with that one, actually. So the biggest thing you can do,
[Mark]:and you can even use, I'm sure there are gurus selling courses on this. If you'd
[Mark]:like to know, there is some right charlatans out there. Like you can even use chat GPT to
[Mark]:just say, right, what are people looking for in my niche? You know, and so think about
[Mark]:this as keyword research because the best way to build anything. is to always be
[Mark]:present throughout the research cycle or the buying cycle or the listening cycle
[Mark]:or the whatever cycle is to be like, you want to be the obvious choice. I used to
[Mark]:make an analogy when I was doing speaking gigs around startups and business where if
[Mark]:you imagine a sale at the end of a corridor, so you've got a corridor, you've got a leisure
[Mark]:prospect, the person buying the thing that you're selling right down a hotel corridor
[Mark]:and at the end, there's a door at the very, very end that you've got to get them
[Mark]:through in order to sell them the thing. But out of each other door, on each side of
[Mark]:them, on the corridor, is someone shouting an objection. What about the cost? What about
[Mark]:the guarantee? Can you really afford this? Is it going to be crap? Is it going to
[Mark]:be any good? What about these missing things? What about these things that you might
[Mark]:not need? Your job at every stage is to be present enough to close down those objections
[Mark]:before they get to the door. All right. So it's like, what about the price? No brainer.
[Mark]:Look at all the value. What about trusting these people? Yeah, hello. They've answered
[Mark]:all these other questions. These guys are the obvious choice for this. And it's the
[Mark]:same with podcasting. If you are present for every time someone asks a question about
[Mark]:anything in your niche and you've got a damn episode about it, you will gain listeners.
[Mark]:That is it. That is a fact. That is a fact and I know that because that's how I've
[Mark]:grown this year. That's how I've grown Captivate. Like how many times do we share
[Mark]:the, here's a trailer format you can copy podcast episode, a
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:lot of times, like if you Google podcast network business plan, one of my episodes is
[Mark]:there just because that's the plan. Okay. So that's the first thing. short term,
[Mark]:like near sighted stuff, you have to focus on not necessarily marketing but just
[Mark]:promotion. Like just promotion. If you don't have time to learn marketing, get really
[Mark]:good at saying, here's this new thing that I've released today. Here's how you get
[Mark]:it and tell everyone you know about it. And that's really high level stuff. There
[Mark]:are a lot of tactics that go with that. Do you use social? Do you use video? How, you
[Mark]:know, what are your calls to action? How do you structure that? What toolkit do
[Mark]:you use to do that? But that's the basis. Here's new thing. you enjoy it and tell everyone
[Mark]:else that you know that might enjoy it to also enjoy it. That's why, like for Spark
[Mark]:a Rebellion, a really good way to promote that is just turn up at Star Wars Celebration.
[Mark]:Just turn up and have conversations. Guess what? How do we grow Captivate? All those
[Mark]:speaking gigs, all of those conferences, all those friends that I've got so that when
[Mark]:we launch Captivate, like the day we launched Captivate, we were... greatly profitable,
[Mark]:literally the second that we enabled the sign up screen. We had people signing up
[Mark]:because it was like, oh, it's Mark and Kieran. That'll be good. It's Mark and
[Danny Brown]:Hmm.
[Mark]:Kieran. Oh, that'll be good. And people told other people. So you've got to do the
[Mark]:same with your podcast. So yeah, that's what I'd say. That's what I'd say. Again, a
[Mark]:lot to that, a lot we could dig into with that one, but good question, dude.
[Danny Brown]:So Mark, we talked about how you got your fire back right at the start of
[Danny Brown]:the episode, which seems a long, long time ago. We talked about how you got
[Danny Brown]:your fire back after a year away, and it's clear, speaking to you now about some
[Danny Brown]:of the topics that we've discussed, there's a lot that you've got to say. So what's
[Danny Brown]:next for the podcast accelerator, and what's next for you, and what's next for
[Danny Brown]:Captivate?
[Mark]:Well, for me and the podcast accelerator, it's more of the same. A lot of people say
[Mark]:that, like, what's next for you? Now you're part of global. Are you off? Are you
[Mark]:going to do different things? Like, no, this is just me. I could still be podcasting
[Mark]:even if I didn't work in it. So it's just more of the same. It's, I said it last
[Mark]:week on the episode, you know, we've got an amazing team with Captivate. You know,
[Mark]:you're a huge part of it. We've got such a strong and confident team that I don't
[Mark]:have to do a lot of the stuff that I used to do, a lot of the... The stuff that
[Mark]:when you have a team, it's like micro management, but when you don't have a team,
[Mark]:it's just getting your hands dirty. So I'm able to think like I used to do, like
[Mark]:some of the big picture stuff, like the new features that we're putting out next
[Mark]:week, some of the longer term planning for Captivate, some of the brand position with
[Mark]:Captivate, again, some of the stuff that we're launching next week is very much
[Mark]:a sort of subtle brand repositioning. So it's more of that, man. I love doing it.
[Mark]:I am very fortunate. to work in an industry like you do that is just enjoyable. So it's
[Mark]:more of the same. The accelerator, it's shifting to Thursdays from Mondays because
[Mark]:it's silly to put out episodes on a Monday like what idiot thought that was a good
[Mark]:idea. It's gonna be a mix of this stuff. So it's gonna be a lot of interviews with people
[Mark]:who are genuinely great at what they do. It's gonna be a lot of my solo education.
[Mark]:It's gonna be round tables. So it's gonna be very much education focused but probably
[Mark]:an industry. level if you like sometimes you know bringing in education on the industry
[Mark]:because I think that's the thing that the hobbyist podcaster sometimes feels alienated
[Mark]:by is what's going on that I don't know about that I probably should know about and
[Mark]:do I need to worry about it. So there's a lot of that going on. For Captivate, couldn't
[Mark]:possibly tell you, you're going to have to turn up to the live stream on youtube.com
[Mark]:slash Captivate podcasting at 4pm UK on the 16th of May. And I will say and I know
[Mark]:you'll back this up. The new set of features that we're putting out next week are
[Mark]:absolutely insane. They are, it is the most well done piece of kit, I think, on the
[Mark]:entire market, dude. I think everyone's done such a good job of it.
[Danny Brown]:Yep, no, I 100% backed that up. I've just been doing some testing this week
[Danny Brown]:and I've been blown away and I had to share on Twitter. No screenshots,
[Danny Brown]:obviously, because I value my life and limps. But yeah, it's super amazing.
[Danny Brown]:I can't wait for the podcasters to get their hands on it.
[Mark]:I love it man, I love it. Well listen, thanks for interviewing me mate. This has been
[Mark]:a swap in roles which I'm fascinated by so I really appreciate it dude and we've
[Mark]:mentioned it a few times but what are you working on? What's the thing? What's the
[Mark]:thing? I know we've mentioned it a couple of times but what's the thing that you want
[Mark]:people to get a hold of that you're producing dude?
[Danny Brown]:Yeah, so thanks man. I enjoyed it. It's like it's different to be the interviewer
[Danny Brown]:bit on someone else's show. That's like as a new one. I might have to look into
[Danny Brown]:that as a niche niche, whatever. So yeah, you mentioned PodChat. Thank you for
[Danny Brown]:that. That's fun enough on a little bit of a spring hiatus, but I'm getting
[Danny Brown]:I've got a bunch of guests lined up for that. I do one minute podcast tips,
[Danny Brown]:which I can't really explain any more than that. Just one minute podcast
[Danny Brown]:tips and no deep dives. Nothing. They're just really short punchy things. So
[Danny Brown]:you can basically find me whatever podcast I do. I've got some really fun hobby
[Danny Brown]:ones that I do. Now and again, you can find all that at dannypod.com. And
[Danny Brown]:obviously I'm on the Captivate team, so you can find me online. Any Captivate
[Danny Brown]:questions, either fling them over at Captivate Audio on Twitter, or myself
[Danny Brown]:at Danny Brown, CA.
[Mark]:Legend, thank you my friend and to you the ever present and always appreciative listener.
[Mark]:You are appreciated right back in return. We've got a lot of content coming up, I've
[Mark]:produced a lot. We've got some great interviews coming up talking about YouTube,
[Mark]:talking about community, talking about monetization and of course some solo education
[Mark]:from me as well. So welcome back to the podcast accelerator. Keep sharing your
[Mark]:voice because it matters to those who hear it. Until next time, take it easy, bye